Comments

 By Tommy Phoenix

I remember having a similar reaction when I saw this ad. I don't necesarrily blame HM for this if it's something similar to the "Bury Your Dead" fiasco in issues past, but I certainly hope you don't advocate this worldview. I'm glad to see someone took the time and effort to adress this. In my opinion it's a lot worse to run an add that trashes other peoples beliefs in such a tasteless manner than to run one for a cd that contains the "f word" (not that that shouldn't have been adressed either..but you get my point". Anyways, that's my 2 cents. Kudos Stephen.

 By Brett

Here here, Stephen.

 By Paul

Atrocity is spelled wrong.

 By mike

i could be totally wrong about this , but is the same band that tried out for battle for ozzfest on the first episode?

 By lauren

wow! i'm a little surprised. they did stipulate that they were trashing "false beliefs"... not the ppl. true, to conjure up images of the Crusades does seem funny. but i don't think false beliefs are a taboo subject to address in xian metal. personally, i think stephen overreacted, but yes KOTNC could have chosen a more tasteful name.

 By David

Ok... so the anberlin guy's an idiot.. thats the verdict. after seeing the ad.. reading his letter AS WELL AS going to the band's site and reading their views on their name (which is what he should have done before pulling the trigger) there's nothing wrong with em'. they dont want to be a part of the 'old crusade' of blood in God's name which is why they're the knights of the 'new crusade' because their crusade - according to them is for the heart. The add shows the religious symbols going in the trash (which is where they belong) not the people. So just turn that finger around - you are the one who jumped the gun and its people like you who prefer to tear on your brothers rather than lift them up that give christians a bad name. Shame on you - with the power you have what with being in a popular band and all, you should spend your time praising Jesus not stumbling your brothers.

 By Darren Tindell

Amen, David.

 By Jeremy Houtsma

First of all Stephen had the right to say what he said because even if they are goofing around or they are serious We all must be sensetive to everyone's faith. Jesus never condemned anyone. His was a message of love. The fact that When you go to these guys website and the first page says do you accept Jesus Christ as Lord with a Yes and no Answer to it is riddiculous. The whole site seems like a bad tastless Joke. to say that other religions belong in the trash is tasteless as well. If you were a Musilim and saw this you would be deeply offended. Would you want to go into that website and find out about what the band is all about? If there were a Muslim Band called the New Jihad and had a picture of a cross in a garbage can( Where they think it belongs) You would be outraged! you would think it was the stupidest thing in the world. So to tell Stephen that he is tearing people down I think not. I think he was trying to correct them. Anberlin is out there in a secular and they see kids everyday who get the wrong impression of Christianity and I think Stephern was trying to correct them. Maybe it was a little harsh but he was correcting them like Paul urges the brothers in the early church to do to each other.

 By Matt

Well, I have been to the website, and I have to agree with Stephen. I have also been to Muslim countries, and they are still hurt and bitter over the Crusades. It is still a huge wall to evangelism in these areas of the world. Still! Stuff like this will only turn people off to Christianity. I mean, if they knew that they were following a false religion, they wouldn't follow it! Duh! Insulting people about their beliefs only turns them away. I can see a Muslim going to that website and turning red with anger over the first few images. IT WON'T MATTER ONE BIT TO A MUSLIM IF YOU PUT THE WORD 'NEW' IN FRONT OF THE WORD CRUSADE. They will still see the word crusade and that is enough. People in different countries associate the symbol with the people, so throwing the symbol into the trash is the same to them - they don't compartmenatlize in other countries like we do over here. "Oh, that's just a symbol, and not a person, so we clearly don't mean to throw out a person." That makes sense to an American, but not to someone from another country. It's one and the same to them. If you are going to use symbols from another coulture, you had better understand that culture first.

 By Scott

Wow....I totally agree with Stephen. Everything about the "New Crusades" band is an embarrassment to Christianity. (Besides just being cheesy and obnoxious.)

 By Mo

Man that is crazy. My question is why HM would even run an ad like that? seems like bad judgement to me.

 By austin king

OK... ya I cant believe that anyone could even argue with the guy from anberlin. He gave you cold hard facts i mean come on!!! And if they dont bother you, maybe you should be checking yourself as well! I completely disagree with the "knights of the new crusade" because other than the name just being cheezy, it really is offensive. Being a christian band is about showing christ through your music, that includes your
BAND NAME. How are you going to show ppl christ if their turned away before you even open your mouth?

 By Matt

Well, it could have been bad judgement on hm, but it's also good to know that this stuff is out there. SOMEONE I know is bound to find this and use it as proof that all Christians are insensitive numbskulls. As I think about it, it's probably good that hm does give us a wide view of what is out there, the good and the bad. I guess I need to get in the mindset that hm doesn't necessarily support a band just because they let them advertise. I mean, how many bands have they trashed in a review and that was next to an ad for that band? (Petra comes to mind)

It also seems that this band would take any negative comments from other Christians as persecution, as evidenced by their announcement for their second album. It's called "rebuke" and "accountability", not "getting heat."

Also gotta love those fake pics from the "holy land." From all my friends and family that have been over there, I have never seen anyone dressed like that in any pictures. Those are nativity costumes....

 By Larry

Come on. This band is obviously nothing more than a joke taken way too far. I mean, did you read any of their lyrics? Or look at their pictures? If it's not a joke, then these guys have some serious mental issues, because it's just so off the wall. Either way, this Anberlin guy has proven himself to be a real idiot by "confronting" them like this.

 By Hross

Why is he an idiot for bringing this up? Not everybody will look at the ad and think, "oh haha they are probably joking...", maybe it is just a joke, but to a lot of people the Crusades aren't any laughing matter.

If you really want to reach out to people and their false beliefs, you do so in a way that shows them you love them and accept them as they are even if they don't accept Jesus. Not by tearing down what they believe in. Offensiveness doesn't transcend and reach out to other beliefs, love does. And for some strange reason I don't think that ad comes off as loving or accepting for that matter. Even if it was a joke, I wasn't laughing.

 By Brian Loftus

I have to say I wish there were more bands or musicians in the christian community that would take stand for CHRIST. For all of those are bashing Stephen he is just taking a stand for what he believes right or wrong he backs his beliefs.

 By Jeremy Houtsma

If you actually look at the bands website you will see that this is not a joke and they feel strongly about their convictions.

 By mt

Stephen definitely has a firm foundation in his criticisms and his concern. I believe it is genuine concern from one Christian brother to another. my concern is that while yes, the band is probably very strong in their convictions, the way the go about them is offensive to those of the religions and cultures they are "addressing". as Christians we aim to love others of different beliefs, shouldn't we? it's tough for a non-Christian to come to a bands website that opens with "do you accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?" and if they don't say yes, they can't get into the website, that doesn't seem very open and loving to me. and though they do feel strongly about their convictions, or at least seem like it, they come off as a total joke to the rest of the world, just look at the interview they posted on their website. stay strong in your convictions, brothers, but look at your motivation and your means of living out those convictions.

 By Aaron Bevacqua

I went to this band's website, and it was totally repulsive to me. I mean, this is the kind of stuff that makes people think Christians are a bunch of corny, cheesy people. It not only makes non-Christians feel that way, but I'm beginning to think it too, which certainly isn't a good thing. The problem is, so many Christians are either hypocrites, or they try to stay as far away from the world as they can, making them seem stupid. This band is a disgrace, starting first and foremost with their name. Don't even get me STARTED on the costumes. On their website they say that they feel silly or look stupid with the costumes - so why in the world wear them!?!?!?! I think these guys are just another group of misguided Christians who need to do some homework. Thank you Stephen for writing this letter, although I doubt it will do any good. They will probably post it on their site like they did with the secular magazine article that's already on there, and call you a misguided Christian.

 By Ethan Motley

I think the person who wrote the last comment summed up the same way I feel.Stephen I see where you are coming from. Ithink these guys are totally out of whack and need toget back on track. Also agreeing with the person above they make Christianity look like some thing dorks do in their spare time. Like an after school activity or something. And man, their costumes ought to have been burned 2000 years ago and saved us from our misery.I haven't heard their music so I can't judge them onthat yet but from the bios they are looking like a cheesy garage band to me. So, Stephen I'm behind you 1000%.

 By jesse

Wow, reading all these arguments is kind of depressing. It is wierd how we (assuming everyone who has sent something up above) as christians tend to argue so much. How is calling someone an Idiot helping anything. If i was not a christian, and i looked at all the responses here, i would think that we are all a bunch of back stabbing poopyheads. That anberlin dude had a point. I understand that this whole thing is most likely a joke. But sometimes, we need to know when a joke is just not funny. If they arnt doing this as a joke, then i really hope they pray alot about what they are doing and the choices they are making concerning the band

 By Thomas

Stephen needs to take a chill pill. He obviously did not go to the band's website and read their position on the Crusades and stuff. The guys are purposely calling themselves The Knights of The NEW Crusade. They are not out to beat people up... Good grief. They are out in a new crusade of winning hearts. They are obviously the Gwar sans 70 gallons of fake blood of Christian rock. A comical Savior Machine. A little shock to make a point. Gwar is respected and these guys are dissed for using the same tactics. Stephen, your sensibilities need a little reminder about the stark realty of heaven and hell. At least you could do is lighten up and laugh a little. It's nothing worse than Kiss, which rockers would defend before they would yell about the "Knights In Satan Service" moniker the band promoted to their advantage when the religious crusading zealots were blasting them in the 70's and 80's. Don't become the zealot when obvious silliness presents itself to make a point.

Read the Maximum Rock N Roll piece on their website, you will laugh at the reporter trying to mock them with his derision. These guys obviously don't take themselves that seriously and they did not beat up the reporter for proclaiming atheism in the end. They waved goodbye and smiled as they did and the reporter thought they were dumb for all the right reasons.

 By Jeremy Houtsma

Whether or not they are named Knights of the NEW Crusade the whole name crusade has bad connotation wrotten all over it. Plus if you go to their web site you will have to dig deep to find out what their name acctaully means. Further more the guys play secular shows...so it seems and with songs like The Whore of Babylon, about the end times ,effectively getting the message of the cross to this world is a little proposterous. They just really need to re-think their tactics. To qoute Catcher in the the Rye "The mark of an immatiure man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause. The mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one"

 By Adam

I agree with Stephen for the most part. On the other hand the truth does devide. I do have to add, after listening to the Knights of the New Crusade, I can predict that they will not be around much longer.

 By taylor caum

I LOVVVVVE HM... SOOOO MUCH!! THEY'RE THE BEST MAGAZINE EVER!! I MEAN DID YOU SEE THAT LAST INTERVIEW WITH ANBERLIN???! IT WAS AMAZING!!! NOTHING I'VE EVER HEARD BEFORE!! SO CREATIVE!!

 By mike

to any of you that think stephen from anberlin is taking it too seriously and not "reading" the website . porn flicks dont condone unsafe sex , they usually have a lame disclaimer at the begging that say "always have safe sex" blah blah . but im gonna guess that anyone whos buyin porn doesnt give a crap about the disclaimer , they see it for what it is. this may be a horrible anology , but , its the same thing. people dont generally read between the lines . they take things as is. sorry for that example lol , but its true

 By aims.

this is 'saved' material, as in the mandy moore movie.

the end.

 By Jax

What I love most about being a Christian is that I do not need a gimic to show that Christ is real. Being a Christian is not about prooving people wrong. It is about loving people as Christ loved us. God doesn't need an advertising campaign.
"Be in reality what you appear to be."--Socrates

 By extol_kid

it wasn't even that good of an ad...

 By belovedx

I wholeheartedly agree with Stephen from Anberlin.Knights of the new crusade? What were they thinking? I'm glad Stephen took a stand and wrote to HM. Other Christians (including myself)should follow his example.

 By sven

"I do have to add, after listening to the Knights of the New Crusade, I can predict that they will not be around much longer."
remember therese no such thing as bad publicity. as for the name, whats the problem? i'm sure if someone had a problem with a Christian band that you like because of the way they sound or their name you would be singing a different tune. so grow up

 By Brittani

There are no words...for this band, besides horrific. Now, granted, I have not listened to their music, but I might have, if they had chosen a different name/slogan/sales gimmick. You dont make jokes about murders. Its wrong. Especially when it is making a joke about your 'religeon' committing mass murders in the name of Christ. It is sending the wrong message. The 'New Crusade', makes it sound to me, like they are planning on going out and committing the same act all over again! Is that the message they WANT to send? I sure hope not. To me, as a very wary christian, this is a bit borderline 'cult-ish'. And I am turned off from it in a BIG way.
I agree with Stephen, and commend him for taking a stand against something so wrong. I also very much agree with Scotts response.
I hope this band will take this all into consideration, and honestly think and pray about it, before tagging us all with the titles of 'misguided christians.'

 By Brittani

Ok, so I meant to say Matt instead of Scott. I agree with Matts first comment.

 By Seth Dahlios

The ad borders on bad taste, I'll give you that. But as for there being anything outright misguided about it, well...
There isn't anything that isn't biblical in the ad. The people who ran the first crusades were probably some of the most religious guys ever but they sort of went about it the wrong way.
I hate to relate these two things but it sort of draws a parrelle to Bush and the war in Iraq: good idea, bad carry-through.
I think they extol kid sums it up pretty good when he says it wasn't even that good of an ad. All they're doing is trying to create publicity and you guys are helping them.
By the way, the dressing up is hateful.

 By Joel

Anybody who still gets worked up over the crusades is weak. Welcome to the new millennium asshole.

 By Me

Welcome to the new millennium - and learn how to understand other cultures. Just because we Americans are so stupid that we forget history, don't insult those who do. Emotion isn't weakness, stupidity is.

 By Cole Bratcher

Wow... I was reading this, and someone Named Jessie said the one thing that made sense to me in this whole debate. He said this was depressing and if some non-christians were reading this they would think we are all "Backstabbing Poopyheads". Which I totally agree with. I know that somewhere in the Bible it talks about how we should rebuke our brother. Doesn't it say we should talk to them directly first, THEN if that doesn't work we make it more public? Stephen I totally agree with you really, but I hope you wrote them directly about this first. I doubt that they were malevolent in thier intent, and now that this is public, we "Backstabbing Poopyheads" may have driven them to near Suicide with our harmful comments!! No matter how wrong they are we should still treat them better than we have so far.

 By Cole Bratcher

By the by, Doug VanPelt if you're reading this, I want to hear your 2 cents on the whole thing.

 By S.A. Johnson

Its important to remember that at the time of the crusades there was no access to the word of God. The church was so restrictive in this access that most priests could spend their entire life never having seen a Bible. The average person couldn't read at the time either. This is probably the textbook example of "blind faith". The people believed they were doing right because their religious leaders told them they were. The same could be said of the other side. Lets not forget the moslem encroachment into Spain!
This is an example of what happens when people place their faith not in God, but in the church. Sadly, in spite of todays literacy and the overwhelming number of Bibles. Their is still more faith in the collective of church rather than God.

 By Matt

Well, the Bible says that if a person sins you should take it to that person, so it depends on if you consider their ad a sin or not. Interesting to note that, at least in the version I am looking at, the word "first" isn't in there, or even "only". It just says take it to that person, then take two others with you, then take the whole church. I've never really thought about this, but there's not really an implied order of how you deal with it, just who you take with you when do deal with it. Maybe it can be implied from that verse that you are only supposed to take it to that person. Hmmm. Interesting things to chew on.

It's interesting to read a lot of these comments about how non-Christians would react to this stuff. There's a difference between predicting what non-Christians would do and knowing what they would do because you actually interact with them. Most of the non-Christians I know really could care less about Christians arguing about anything. They are disappointed with Christians ability to disagree intellegently and respectfully. All that junk about "well, I'm right and if you disagree with me you are an idiot, because I said so" stuff. Most non-Christians I know enjoy a good debate, or even an argument, as long as you are intellegent about what you say and respectful in your disagreements.

 By Cole Bratcher

Yeah, that's what I meant. A healty debate is a wonderful thing, as long as you treat people well. But calling people idiots and whatnot is over the line, especially for people trying to be christ-like. I used to do that a lot in highschool and I burned a lot of bridges that way.

 By David

Arrgh!!!! Yesterday doing all my errands I NEVER once stopped to uplift one person. This Gospel - I have it firmly under a bushal unless someone wants to ask me my point of veiw. Was God able to use me to share His Gospel??? I just don't know about all this - Is crying allowed at HM? I couldn't play in a public park in San Fran and stand so strongly for my beliefs. I don't want to push someone away who has different beliefs from what I have grown up on and hold fast to daily. I want them to know God not me. Ya know I don't even have sore knees.

 By ANDY

I understand why HM ran the ad: The magazine has previously indicated support for George W. Bush because he opposes abortion & same-sex marriage. At the same time, it has been sufficiently proven that Mr. Bush LIED to millions of people, that Mr. Bush does NOT affirm the sanctity of any kind of life as evidenced by atrocities against human life in Iraq, that Mr. Bush is NOT a good steward of God's Creation (meaning the environment & the ways corporations pillage the Earth)...I could go on & on...HM: PLEASE withdraw the ad in question & PLEASE do not be a wishy-washy Christian publication, thank you, Andy

 By Kat

I hope that one day, hundreds of years from now, if a Muslim group of kids get together, make a band, and name it New 9-11 someone will have the guts to say something like Stephen said. That is almost the equivalent for our generation. It is also the first thought that came to my mind when seeing this bands add. Just think about it.

 By Matt

The only person to "prove" George Bush a liar was Michael Moore, and now he's been proven a liar (53 documented lies in Farenheit 911). It gets me steamed when people talk about corporations pillaging the earth, because these corporations wouldn't exist if the demand from the American consumer didn't exist. Corporations are neutral entities that only supply what we demand of them. Even using a computer to access the internet uses electricity, electricity from a power plant that is polluting the environment. Don't point the fingers at Bush or corporations - point them at yourself! Do you know that Bush has proposed sweeping environmental laws that would make your stomach churn once you figured out how much your life would have to change in order to make them a reality?

Atrocities against human life in Iraq? What do you can the genocide of tens of thousands of people yearly under Saddam Hussein, all because one person from that people group disagreed with him? The atrocity levels in Iraq have decreased by over 90% since the invasion. I don't support war, but I do have friends that live in Afghanistan and Iraq, who have lived in these places for 10 years, and they say the quality of living has increased dramatically. And these are missionaries who are vocally anti-war, but they grudgingly admit that what Bush is doing is working.

Some people need to stop watching so much TV. My friends saw CNBC take a peaceful protest of 20 teachers in Iraq and turn it into a national crisis of violent anti-American protests sweeping the nation! My friends, who are very American, were standing in the back of this "Anti-American" crowd, just chatting with people.

I don't agree with everything Bush does, but there never will be a president that I will agree totally with, because they are all HUMAN and they will make mistakes. I don't even totally agree with my wife 100% of the time. We are still called to support our leaders, and not promote slanted views on them. Blaming Bush for stuff that is really just an extension of our own greedy human nature is not honoring to him, and the Bible says to honor those in authority. You can still honor someone and disagree with them, just make sure you have the facts straight and you honor them in your disagreements.

By the way, good point Kat.

 By S.A. Johnson

I certainly don't think it took "guts" for Stephen to say what he did. Politically correct speech is never the language of the brave. And he took the safest possible point of view. Condemning Christians of the past by the standards of today. Quite honestly the ad should not be this controversial.Right or wrong the Christians of that time backed up their faith with their lives. Not arguing over a form of entertainment.

 By Meredith Goertz

Whatever you think about the Crusades, the fact is, I'm surprised a fine mag like HM continues to carry their ads... if we're so concerned with quality music, why is it that there's not the same standard in the message it carries? and something that reduces all other religions to trash.. rather than understanding they are false religions, untrue, but still: contain some truth and agreement with Christian worldviews -- though NOT SAVING TRUTH

Is there no standard? You can't be accused of discrimination over refusing advertising, can you??? (Or is that just the way it SHOULD be??)

Fact is, I think God's going to bless the magazine for holding up a standard in their advertising... so I'd wonder why the ad is still there the next month.

 By lauren

Yes, Meredith, other religions ARE trash! You know why? b/c the spirit behind them is trash. Period.
Are Christians so concerned these days w/ being politically correct, that they are afraid to offend? Christ was offensive...that's why they killed him. But what are we today? Mere peacekeepers who are no threat to anybody.
Let KOTNC offend Muslims, Hindus, etc. Let them! Their message is of a spiritual level, not physical. Besides, if you are offended by someone else's beliefs it is b/c you are insecure in your own.
Yes we are called to love all ppl, but the spirit of false religion still has to be brought down. You're not gonna "love" it away. I would say KOTNC are right on the money...too bad their voice is so small. To think some would like to see it silenced.

 By Cole Bratcher

Wow, this is even more out of control than before!

 By logic

This conversation is stupid. Anberlin dude's letter writing over this very "Old Womany". Dude needs to grow a pair. The band's name is stupid and they probably suck. Haven't heard'em...don't care to. (Now to just the guys.) All you numb-nuts that are talking all of this sensitivity crap need to grow some nuts you bunch of whiny sackless wonders! Geez! Who gives a crap what some band names themselves or the imaging they choose. They don't give Christianity a bad name-YOU DO! SACK UP NUTLESS!

 By Me

The Bible says Jesus was so "sensitive" that "a bruised reed he wouldn't break, a flickering candle he wouldn't put out." Being a real man means being like Jesus, who was both bold and fearless alongside with sensitive and loving. We need to get away from the stupid Rambo real-man junk that the world sells us and dig into the example that Jesus set for us. Ever heard the saying "the pot calling the kettle black"?

 By logic

To:Me...go roll a joint ya hippie!

 By Mike Andrews

Mike from the Knights of the New Crusade here. Just thought I'd offer my two or three cents.
Stephen's "cold hard facts" are, as I pointed out to him, completely ungermane. Pulling factoids off the internet with no regard for the morphology of history is a pseudo-intellectual exercise: his writing style further reinforces the impression that he's attempting to write above his abilities.
I asked Stephen what his band is about, as the lyrics I found on christianlyrics.com were perhaps poetic but certainly oblique. Rather than address that or any of my other questions, he ranted on for several e-mails before declaring that he had closed the debate.
This sort of intellectual laziness as well as what seems (at the risk of inciting further outrage, but somebody has to say it)a half-hearted commitment to Christ in order to move as many units as possible (under the guise of "spreading the message," whatever it may be in its watered-down form) are unfortunately all too common in the Christian rock world today.
If anybody's still upset over the Crusades, why shouldn't the Spanish be upset at the Moorish Conquest? Or why don't we picket all the Mongoloan BBQ places that are named after Genghis Khan? I'm still trying to figure out how Stephen can be so upset over the Crusades when he supports the war in Iraq and states that he does it because he has to support the political party he belongs to. It's up to his own conscience how much he wants to render unto Caesar, but that's certainly farther than I want to go. (Besides, at least the battles in the Crusades featured about equal technology: it was a much fairer fight than what our ostensibly Christian President has wrought in Iraq)
As for us not being around much longer, this sort of childish sniping is on a level with, "Do you know you guys look stupid." Yes, believe it or not, not everybody wants to look like a "cool" rock star (or even be a rock star). Yes, we're not going to be around very long but remember: neither are you. This world is less than a blip compared to Eternity.
Thanks to all for your input and God Bless.

 By richard head

This Anberlin guy doesn't realize that the knights of the new crusade are fighting a non-violent crusade. It's a metaphor you moron. Listen to the record! Besides, at least the knights have the guts to sing about what they believe instead of singing ambiguous ("poetic") lyrics. The knights have personality which is more than anyone can say for Anberlin.

 By Matt the Monk

there's a lot of reference to scripture in these postings but some of them seem to need a little more context or at least explanation. i don't find "sensitive" in either the new international or king james, sounds like a "new age" influenced translation. Jesus as prophesized by Isiah would not break a "bruised reed" - "until He leads justice to victory." i certainly feel that we should do our best to show Jesus' influence in our lives by imitating his, but it should be pointed out that there is no specific command for Christians not breaking bruised reeds.
also if the ad is a sin there needs to be some scriptutral backing.

 By Matt

Wow! I never thought I would see such hatred towards other believers with such an issue. Stephen was up front and thoughtful with his remarks. I think maybe we could all learn a little from stephen and start helping eachother fine tune our faith and learn to be humble when we maybe wrong while representing our Lord Jesus Christ. Also, I don't think God would find this bands web site to be a very funny joke.

 By Matt

Everyone needs to back-up-off HM. They are not here to please everyone. They are here to give us the current news in christian music so that we can decipher what is going on with our own intuition. Please stop ridiculing the messenger!

 By Donald

People need to understand that Stephen is the person with hate. If you read the responses from Mr. Andrews regarding the slandering of his band, you'll find a well read writing style backed with thought provoking retorts. Mr. Andrews does not promote any hate; this is the work of Anberlin. Any Christian that does not view their faith as the one absolute in this universe is selling themselves short. Why are you a Christian if you don't believe that Jesus is the answer. If you believe in one of the other religions in the rubbish bin, from the add, then argue on behalf of one of those religions. We all love Jesus here and the only person who is doing any hating is this Anberlin fellow, to bad for him. Until he lets love into his heart his artistic endeavors will suffer.

 By Matt

Hey, Donald. Stop typing. You're using up space on the internet. In better words, you need to slow down and really read what Stephen was saying. He was saying that we should be cautious of offending people while representing our Lord. Oh, and I think that Mr. Andrews rebuttal was a little bitter sounding.

 By Donald

Hey Matt, You're the guy with multiple posts. What...are you getting holier than thou on me? Why can't you just let me voice my opinion, this is a forum right? Who are you?? You're less important than you think you are...god would tell you the same thing. Did you listen to the Knight's CD?...Probably not

 By richard

Hey MATTHEW JOSEPH CONDRA, Go back to Indiana University Southeast, enter the library and pick out a good bible. Read it insted of these posts. You're not doing any good and you might actually have a break through if you have faith. Stay strong through these troubled times my brother!

 By MIke Andrews

Bitter? All in the eye of the beholder, I guess. I thought the Anberlin guy sounded bitter and I was just being candid. It would also be a lot easier to tell exactly what he's getting at off he didn't assume a superior tone that doesn't seem to be warranted on either an ethical or intellectual level. I hope that doesn't sound bitter: over the course of my correspondence with the Anberlin-er, that is simply the conclusion that I reached.
As for the Socrates quote (which I assume is actually derived from Plato), I am in reality what I appear to be: somebody in a band that wears goofy outfits. I'm not sure that I really put too much store in living up to the writings of a pagan protofacist, but for whomever was concerned about it.
Again, I thank everyone for their contribution to this discussion. I think the issue of "closeted" Christian rock (whether it's the appropriate tack or whether it tends to be ineffective)is an important one. There are obviously people who disagree on the subject, which is great as long as the discussion is civil (and other than Stephen's misguided and, once again, largely ungermane rants, it has been).
I'm also moved by the concern that people have evinced regarding our approach and the possibility of it "turning people off." Maybe we're influenced by living not far from the San Francisco/Berkeley for the past couple of years, but we deal with Satanists, atheist punks, people with Darwin "fishes" on their car, and we've usually found them surprised at the candor of our approach but not at all hostile. I think the "in your face" approach works around here because it gets people's attention. It won't work everywhere or with everyone, but you know what? Nothing does. Remember the parable of sowing the seed.

 By J. Cantu

I like your stand Steph. Also YOUR ALBUM IS THE NEXT BIG THING!!! I CAN FEEL IT IN MY BONES!! GET Anberlin's ALBUM NOW!!! TRUST ME!

 By Sasha

Oh, wow oh wow.

I'm not Christian.
And half you are the reason I'm sooooo happy I'm not.

You guys are rediculous.

I was impressed with both Stephen and the guy sticking up for his band.

They were both well spoken and nice.

The rest of you are just goin' at it, not getting anywhere. Some of you are certainly NOT conveying the message of Jesus Christ.

"Go roll a joint, you hippie..." ??

Dude. Not nice. Jesus was nice. Even I know that.

The way some of you conducted yourselves was absolutely atrocious.

 By Sasha

Oh, and I do wonder... what if a group of Muslims named some band "September 9/11... the Jihad"

That's over and done with!! People who are still upset about that are just weak. We're just a non-violent band!

(I don't actually agree, I just want you to react.)

 By just passing by

ummm...mike, talking about e-mails that stephen may or may not have actually sent isn't much of a selling point. it comes across as pretty immature to use those private e-mails in a public forum. i don't know you at all, and i have no beef with you. just a thought.

 By Jeremy Houtsma

I think we can all learn something from what Sasha just said. HM doesn't just Cater to Christian people. If a non-Christian like Sasha comes on the message board and sees a bunch of Christinas bickering and fighting about something soooooooooo Stupid why would they want to become a Christian. How many people here have called each other stupid and idiotic is ridiculous. We are an example of Christ wherever we go and we might be the only Jesus someone like Sasha sees. I'm not trying to preach here I just think we should just end it all right now and quit posting before we starting drawing more lines against other Christians in our hearts. I too Had someout spoken words to say on the subject soo I am just as guilty. Can we end this now?

 By jimmy

Just a thought... Who says that everybody that is goin' at it are all Christians. You can't assume anything because "HM doesn't just Cater to Christian people".

 By (the first) Matt (of this thread, not of ever, and not a Monk)

Hmm... too many people named Matt posting here. I know I didn't post all the posts under the name Matt.

But, I do think that some people need to read and think before reacting. I don't remember anyone thinking there is anything wrong with being bold in your lyrics. And there are plenty of bands out there that wear goofy costumes on stage (think about - it the main guy behind hm magazine, for one). And, yes, the guy from Anberlin is ranting some. But his facts are historically accurate. Do an internet search on the crusades. The key issue here is the use of the imagery of the crusades. You can be a bold Christian, and wear goofy costumes, and still have nothing to do with the crusades. On the ad, the green symbols and the red symbols are Islamic symbols. To a Muslim, calling someone trash is an ultimate insult. It's not like the American equivalent of 'white trash', where people gladly wear the label (for some reason); it's just a pure insult. If you call a Muslims belief trash, they will automatically get offended and not listen to you. It's not the kind of offense that makes someone think, it's the kind of offense that causes them to reject Jesus. Yes, the add pictured above will cause Musllims to reject the message of Jesus. Sorry if you don't like that fact. I've been to the Middle East. I've actually studied some Muslim culture, and I've spent some time witnessing to Muslims. If you think the Anberlin guy is ranting, just try to talk to a Muslim about the crusades. They will truly go off. I've heard it. It's not a joke. No, I don't think it's good for them to still be bitter over something that happened so long ago. But whether I think it's good for them or not, they still are (and actually, the Spainish still aren't too happy about the Moors, FYI. I've been there, too). I mean, if you really want to be bold, why not send that ad to a Muslim group here in America? The term "new crusade" has been used by Christian groups for centuries. And it has always offended Muslims, and turned them away from Jesus. The word "new" there didn't matter. When America first invaded Irad, there were 20/20 reports about this whole issue (of Muslims still being bitter over the crusades). It seems more like just blowing smoke to change the issue to the "boldness" factor of the lyrics. Stephen's rant says nothing about boldness. Just the crusades imagery.

A lot of people are writing that it's okay to offend others. That seems to go against the second greatest commandment, but Jesus did say we will offend people by standing for Him. But if you standing for something other than Him, like the crusades, causes someone to be so offended that they reject Jesus, do you really think you are doing God's will? Just think about.

Just to point out, Jesus never really offended people of a different religion. He really never dealt with many people other than the jews, and a few Greeks, and those Greeks actually didn't find that much offensive about him. It was the people that claimed to follow Yahweh that were the most offended by Jesus.

And I can understand why people get tired of Christian bickering, but you can't follow Jesus because of people arguing? I see humans arguing everyday at work, but that doesn't mean I can reject humanity. Everytime I turn on the news, I see an American arguing with another American. But that doesn't mean I am going to stop being an America. The claims of Jesus are the same, even if his followers argue. I would challenge people to look at those claims and see if they are the truth and then judge based on an objective standpoint whether you believe His claims or not. Don't let the problems of humans get in the way of you finding peace with God.

 By Tim

God brings us a message and a hope for peace. Why on earth (or heaven) would God want millions of people to die? It says clearly in the bible that God loves everyone with a passion. He died for us so we wouldnt have to die for him. God does not think anyone "deserves" to die. So, therefore, why would it be ok to have a band totally ignoring these important things, and on top of that, have a picture of a trash can with symbols of religions in it? and by the way, for the guy who called stephen an "idiot", the end of your post says we should lift up other christians, why did you call stephen an idiot?

 By Mike Andrews

Just checking in to see how goes the discussion. There are some good points but it seems as if there's a lot of the old "chinese telephone" game going on. I'll just mention the most recent post, which claims that we're ignoring Go'd love and His sacrifice for everyone and that we are promoting the belief that someone "deserves" (his quotes, so he's implying that it's a direct quote reflecting our beliefs) to die. If you start with a faulty notion of what we're about, as Stephen seems to have done, your conclusions are going to have no bearing on reality. Out of love, I tried to explain this to him but he was unfortunately uninterested in anything resembling a dialogue. That's the way it is with brothers, I guess.

 By Mike Andrews

Just checking in to see how goes the discussion. There are some good points but it seems as if there's a lot of the old "chinese telephone" game going on. I'll just mention the most recent post, which claims that we're ignoring Go'd love and His sacrifice for everyone and that we are promoting the belief that someone "deserves" (his quotes, so he's implying that it's a direct quote reflecting our beliefs) to die. If you start with a faulty notion of what we're about, as the original letter writer seems to have done, your conclusions are going to have no bearing on reality. Out of love, I tried to explain this to him but he was unfortunately uninterested in anything resembling a dialogue. That's the way it is with brothers, I guess.

 By (the first) Matt

Unfortunately in today's world, you don't always get a second chance to make a first impression. People may just get to see the ad and the name of the band, and then they may get offended and not find out what you are all about. Just as if I decided to name my band "tree", I am going to have to sit and think, "what is that going to mean to everyone that just sees it on a sign somewhere, or in an ad?" A word like tree is pretty neutral, but obviously, "crusade" is stirring people up a bit. Instead of brushing off Stephen and ignoring his points because you don't like the way that he addressed it, or think (for some reason) that his historic facts are innaccurate (they aren't that far off), maybe you should think "hmmmm... if he was offended by us so much that he wrote a letter, how many other people were offended enough to just blow us off and ignore what we are all about?" Usually, only about 1% of the people who get offended acutally end up saying somethong. You've got a good, what 20 people?, writing in here offended. So there could be 2,000 people out there that just blew you off, and didn't hear the message of Jesus, and didn't get to find out what you are about. But still, the original letter only addresses the crusdaes imagery, not who you are about as a band. I can tell you are serious about getting your message out. So why do something that may hinder it? Why not just call yourselfs the "Knights of the Lord" or something?

What I still don't get, on the website, is the pictures of the people dressed in funny costumes, claiming to be from the Holy Land. Dude, I've been to the holy land. No one dresses that way there. Some of your fans are pulling your leg.

 By Tim

for the second recent post, who is the "we" that is ignoring gods love? my statment was for the people of this band and what their promoting. that is what this whole letter and comments is about. and in this world today, with so many people with different views on things, you have to be very careful with things you say, which is exactly the case here. we have to be sure in this world that yes, god the 1 absolute truth, with out making it look like we dont care about the other relegion at all. and that may not be the case of the band ad, but it sure comes off like that.

 By Tim

and what does george bush have to do with this anyways?

 By ?

JESUS CHRIST LOVES US WITH A LOVE WE CANT EVEN IMAGINE!!!!! SPREAD THAT AROUND INSTEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 By Matt

Hey Donald, Man I'm really sorry about the way my post read back to you. I was in hurry and didn't proof read to see how it sounded. It was an honest mistake and I was trying to joke around. Sorry about the miscommunication. It won't happen again.
-Matt

 By Jeremy Houtsma

I'd have to say the general concensus of the whole thing and about 75% of the comments are about how offensive it is and that it's ridiculous maybe we should just email these people and tell them instead of bickering or repeating everything everyone else has said.

 By James Feria

Please people...try not to take yourselves too seriously. Obviously the knights are being ridiculous and fun with their costumes, but they bring up a good point - Do you believe that Jesus is our only lord and savior? If so, why deny that all the other religions are not right? If you believe in Jesus than you must realize that Christianity is the only way. Why should we be overly sensitive to the beliefs of people who follow false religions? And as far as the use of Crusade imagery...ok, maybe that's not in good taste but it's certainly no worse than a band that claims to be Christian yet has no Christian lyrics and has no praise of god on their website or any of their literature.

 By dan

well, everyone has some good points. but instead of arguing and debating over some usless things, think about this. no, its not right to offend others that there religion is trash. but, jesus christ is THE 1 ABSOLUTE TRUTH. there is no other way.

 By jimmy

I wonder what Stephen thinks about Benny Hinn Crusades?

 By Jeremy Houtsma

This thread just seems to go on and on and on and on.......END IT!!!!!!

 By Luke

in the geocities interview that John Day posted, the Kights mention that they are against the war in Iraq saying "What part of ´Thou Shalt Not Kill´don´t you understand?" And yet their name is also representative of a war that killed many people.
I am not saying one way or another, I just think that telling people to "turn or burn" simply doesn't work.
(Even though the Knights didn't specifically say turn or burn, it is the same style of witnessing)

 By people puhlease

Killing is fun! Give it a try! I like blood splatter! Yummy! Don't judge justsendthem to judgment. It saves so much work! KILL! KILL! KILL! KILL!

 By people puhlease

Kidding! Don't do that.

 By people puhlease

Sorry...listening to too much Anberlin...even had the mezzpulled words like Anberlinner Dude.

 By Matt

Not really named Matt, but since everyone else is... :)

All I have to say is, I've been saved for 20 years and I've seen a lot of things come and go. I think someday most of the people here will forget this little melodrama and realize that there is more to life than what one band or the other says or does. Anyone remember Jimmy Swaggart's rants on Stryper? How about backwards masking? I didn't think so. One day Knights of the New Crusade and Anberlin will be but distant memories and the people in said bands will have to worry about real issues like finding a real job and what to do with kids who are disabled or something, and this kind of crap won't matter. Same with the posters here. Get off the freaking Internet and go babysit for a mom whose husband is in Iraq, or mow the lawn for an elderly person, or even just visit that elderly person since they probably don't even see their real family much. Do something for Christ that actually matters, or don't do it for Christ just do it because it needs to be done, but realize one thing, that music is temporary and as much as you enjoy it now, someday you'll look back and wonder, what the heck was I thinking?

 By S.A. Johnson

For the one who said "turn or burn simply doesn't work": The truth is what the truth is. We are not out to make more Christians. Enough modifying the message to accomadate "inclusiveness" has been done already to the detriment of the REAL word of God. Remember this: Almost every person who ever lived will burn!And many of them think they ARE christians. You cant' save everyone or anyone. You can only hope that at some point you can cross their path with the message. Make sure its the word of God and not some silly sales pitch to get them to attend Church. Commercial or inclusive Christianity is no Christianity at all. More Christians is not better if they are all misled. Speaking for myself I could stand a lot more "fire and brimstone" messages.

 By Jeremy Houtsma

This is my last post cause I think we should end this thread but...in regard to what was just said the... truth is truth but the message of the gospel is not turn or burn..It's God loves you and sent his son to die for you so you could live in eternal life.
Paul said he became all things to all men in order to save them. To the Jew he was a jew and to the greek a greek, what that basically meant was that he taught the gospel relevantlly to the culture. He taught in the style that was most effective..if that was just loving them to get across the message of the gospel he would.
I have known many non-Christians who have been turned off to the turn or burn message and have been personally hurt. My point is this; The turn or burn style HAS turned many non believers...away from Jesus. it is truth yes and is reality but if it has such a negative effect like i have seen I don't think it should be utilized all that much. I have seen the gospel message best when others can observe a true Christians life not have their theology and thoughts crammed down their throats. Live your life for Jesus and that is one of the best witnesses.

And to what the Matt 2 posts above said...Amen man! Everyone get off the subject and go do something that will show your love for Jesus and his love for others. Be productive!

 By andy

jeremy and matt have spoken!

 By S.A. Johnson

Read your Bible. Many people walked away from Jesus himself. It is not your job to get "converts" for Christ. If you have to weaken the word to do it you have done nothing. Just who do you think Jesus is talking to when he says "depart for I never knew you" (paraphrased).
Results based christianity is what is destroying this world. Not the devil. The devil is powerless over Jesus but he is running Christianity today.
No one should ever cram any ideology down anyone's throat. Speak and move on. If they don't hear so be it. The story of the rich man and his servant is the best story for witnessing. You have the rich man in hell (turn or burn) and the servant in heaven (compassion and salvation). It covers the whole spectrum. And even that story clearly points out that no matter what you say many will not listen.

 By people puhlease

"The devil is powerless over Jesus but he is running Christianity today."

I think it's an EVIL magazine too...I'm glad that I am not the only one who sees that.

 By (the first) Matt

Hmmm.... I actually read 2 articles, I can't remember where, this year that were about Stryper and Swaggart squaring off. I think someone is going to do a TV movie about it. You know, you really don't know what people do with their lives, so I would be careful about assuming we don't do anything else in life because we spend 10 minutes every few days on this page. I could list for you all that I do to help the poor, but I shouldn't have to just to prove that some are being judgemental. Discussing and debating any issue is a valid intellectual pursuit (oooo.... didn't that sound all spiffy...), so don't get all huffy just because you aren't interested. Go to a different page. Let those of us who want to talk and read, talk and read.
And why does the whole "don't preach turn or burn" always get turned into "water down the message of Jesus" by so many people? You can boldly tell someone all about Jesus without even touching on hell fire and brimstone. Heck, I've even told someone to their face that they would go to hell without Jesus, but the way I did it conveyed love and not condemnation. This person, who had been turned off by Fire and Brimstone preaching before, was still my friend afterwards and had no ill feelings towards me. It's all about love.

 By Fred

This crusade makes just as fucking bad as Bush is using god's name in his freaking war...

 By Johnny

Most people, such as the letter writer, are woefully uninformed about the Crusades.

The Crusdaing princes, and especially those of the "People's Crusade" led by Peter the Hermit, committed ungodly, un-Biblical acts against noncombatants, especially Jews.

But there was definitely a just war to be fought, especially during the First Crusade.

Had the Crusades not checked the spread of Islam into Byzantium, Europe would have fallen to the Mohammedans, and none of y'all would have computers with which to post these responses. We wouldn't have the music we enjoy either, so this entire conversation would be moot.

 By SSS

Misconceptions about the Crusades are all too common. Generally portrayed as a series of unprovoked holy wars against Islam, they are supposed to have been the epitome of self-righteousness and intolerance -- a black stain on the history of the Catholic Church in particular and Western, Christian civilization in general. Since September 11, variations of this theme have been used to explain -- even justify -- Muslim terror against the West. Former president Bill Clinton himself, in a speech at Georgetown University, fingered Muslim anger at the Crusades as the "root cause" of the present conflict.

But the truth is that the Crusades had nothing to do with colonialism or unprovoked aggression. The Crusades were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights, but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense. Their entire subsequent history is one of Western reaction to Muslim advances -- they were no more offensive than was the American invasion of Normandy.

Here are some concise facts:

* Islam was born in war and grew the same way. From the time of Mohammed, the means of Muslim expansion was always the sword.

* With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed's death. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt -- once the most heavily Christian areas in the world -- quickly succumbed.

* By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul.

* The Byzantine Empire was reduced to little more than Greece. In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East.

* The end of the medieval Crusades did not bring an end to Muslim jihad -- Islamic states like Mamluk Egypt continued to expand in size and power, and the Ottoman Turks built the largest and most awesome state in Muslim history.

* Under Suleiman the Magnificent the Turks came within a hair's breadth of capturing Vienna, which would have left all of Germany at their mercy. At that point Crusades were no longer waged to rescue Jerusalem, but Europe itself.

* It is often asserted that Crusaders were merely lacklands and ne'er-do-wells who took advantage of an opportunity to rob and pillage in a faraway land. Recent scholarship has demolished that contrivance. The truth is that the Crusades were notoriously bad for plunder. A few people got rich, but the vast majority returned with nothing.

* It is often assumed that the central goal of the Crusades was forced conversion of the Muslim world. Nothing could be further from the truth. Muslims who lived in Crusader-won territories were generally allowed to retain their property and livelihood, and always their religion.

* It was not until the 13th century that the Franciscans began conversion efforts among Muslims. But these were mostly unsuccessful and finally abandoned. In any case, such efforts were by peaceful persuasion, not the threat of violence.

* Jews perished during the Crusades, but the purpose of the Crusades was not to kill Jews. Quite the contrary: Popes, bishops, and preachers made it clear that the Jews of Europe were to be left unmolested.

* The Ottoman Turks not only conquered their fellow Muslims, thus further unifying Islam, but also continued to press westward, capturing Constantinople and plunging deep into Europe itself. By the 15th century, the Crusades were no longer errands of mercy for a distant people but desperate attempts of one of the last remnants of Christendom to survive. Europeans began to ponder the real possibility that Islam would finally achieve its aim of conquering the entire Christian world.

* In 1529, Suleiman the Magnificent laid siege to Vienna. If not for a run of freak rainstorms that delayed his progress and forced him to leave behind much of his artillery, it is virtually certain that the Turks would have taken the city.

* Whether we admire the Crusaders or not, it is a fact that the world we know today would not exist without their efforts. Without the Crusades, Christianity might well have followed Zoroastrianism, another of Islam's rivals, into extinction.

The next time a Muslim starts crying about the crusades, just mention Ethiopia and The Sudan.

 By (the first) Matt

I've met a lot of Zoroastrians.... they'll be bummed to know that their religion is extinct. You forgot the rest of the story, where the fact the Turks could have just gone back, gotten a lot of artillery, and then returned to conquer Europe if it wasn't for the fact that internal struggles had pretty much destroyed the former Muslim nation. In fact, this would have happen centuries earlier if the Crusades hadn't actually caused so many conflicting factions to unite to fight off the invaders. I read a statement that said that the Muslim conquests would have never reached beyond Morocco and Turkey if the Crusades had never happened. The Muslims would have defeated themselves. Most studies I have read point to the fact that the Muslim conquests AND the Crusades actually set the world back several hundred years. The Rennassiance (sic) actually came back and restored a lot of knowledge that had been lost for centuries due to wars and fighting. Muslims had checking accout systems, Greeks had concrete, most civilazations had similiar advances - all were lost for centuries due to fighting. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt were not Christian at the time they were conquered. When Constantine's mother visited Palestine in the 3rd or 4th century, she didn't even find and Christians. This was before Islam was even started in the 7th century. Recent scholarship proves that the leaders of the crusdaes knew all this, but they lied to th people to stir them up. Everyone going on the crusade knew that they wouldn't get much money out of it. I've ever heard that argument. The recent scholarship I have read still supports the fact that there was a lot of plundering.
I say that the next time someone gripes about the war in Iraq, mention Sudan. It's hypocritical to complain about Iraq and not mention Sudan. The daily death toll there is greater than the entire death toll of the Iraq war. Any death is not good, but that's sad to only care about the ones that American die in. Or not to mention the fact that Saddam Hussen was killing tens of thousands of people before he was kicked out, and so technically the death toll in Iraq has gone significatly down in the past few years. But since there are Americans dying, NOW it's time to gripe about it. Sheesh.....

 By Frank Hart

We do not have to be sensitive to demonic worldviews. And, maybe you guys should learn something about the crusades (especially the first one) before you condemn those Godly Christian men with your politically correct historical fiction. The Christians were attacked first, and we fought back and won. You all should get down on your face and thank the LORD for the crusades and the blood that was spilled so you can look back across time and judge them.

 By Bleck!

Defending the crusdaes makes me sick..what's wrong with you people

 By Mikie Andrews

Mike form the Knights again. Glad to see a lot of serious thought going into worthy issues, especially the watering down of the Gospel in supposedly Christian rock. I don't deny anyone their right to water it down, but I don't agree with it in principle or practice.
I'm sorry that so many people apparently have trouble digesting metaphor, but martial metaphor is common in the Bible as well as hymns and sermons. Personally, I think it's better to use the unfortunate human tendency toward violence as metaphor than to put it into practice, but there are clearly many who disagree.
I'd like to thank all the people who've writtten their supportive missives, both here and to our website.
Thanks and God Bless!

Tim, if you're checking back into this: yes, by "we" I mean the band and the notion that we're somehow ignoring God's love is someone's erroneous conjecture that apparently seems factual through repitition.

 By jojo

The Knights have spoken!

 By Sasha

There's a difference between respecting people and being welcoming and watering down Christ's message.

If anyone's watering down Christ's message, I'd say its the Knights, since they're 'trashing' everyone else's religion. I think Jesus would have been loving and accepting, and tried to bring them to Christianity through love.

Not being offensive. Love.

That's just me though. I'm not Christian, and I'm not Jesus, so I can't possibly know what he would have done.

Maybe he would have gone to the Muslims and said "Your religion is trash and you're all sheep. Be Christian. Come on. You're going to burn in hell if you don't. What you've been taught since birth is wrong, and your parents have being lying to you."

I imagine Jesus as a social worker. Social workers use the 'strength perspective.' They show people the good way of doing things while gently phasing out the bad way of doing things.

 By Bleck!

I agree

 By Frank Hart

Tolerance is the virtue of believing in NOTHING.

 By Calixar

Anybody who thinks that Jesus was tolerant of other religions needs to read the Bible. C'mon, this is the guy who made a whip out of rope and drove the moneychangers out of the Temple... USING VIOLENCE.
This is the same Jesus who spoke of Hell.
This is the Jesus who in Luke 22:36 advised His followers to BUY SWORDS!
If you think Jesus would have been okay with Islam, Hinduism, or any other false religion, you don't know Him.

 By Bleck!

Are you people reading other people's comments? There not saying Jesus would have accpeted other people's religions and told them that they were true. Some Christians are soo out of wack sometimes it makes me soo mad. No one said Jesus would say "Allright Mohameed was a good guy and you should believe him." At the same time Jesus didn't denounce Mary Magdelen and say get out of my site prostitute cause Jesus had love...LOVE people! The God I worship is the GOd of second Chances. The God of everlasting Love...In Christ there is no condemnation! What most people have been trying to say is that Jesus' style was love and when he showed them that love and asked what they must do to be saved he told them GO and sin no more or He forgave them. His love MADE them want to change If Christ was an example of love and the word Christian means "Like Christ" or Little Christ" Don't you think we should follow that example as well????? no one is saying to not tell people there is a heaven or hell are they?? Cause I can't find that in anyone's thing here but so many people are acting like people are saying water down the gospel. NO!!!! They are saying connect with that person first and loving people is an awesome way to do it cause that is just what Jesus did. The only people Jesus ever showed hostility to were the Pharisee's and why???? Cause they were sooo concerned about condemning other people that they missed the point of following and their own humanity and how they needed to be cleansed as well. Please stop saying that People are saying that we need to water down the gospel cause you either taking it out of context or just not reading it right. I simply think they are saying going up to someone and saying you are going to hell repent now isn't going to do much good cause it may very well hurt that person and it is a shame if because one person didn't show love to that person but condemned them that they were hurt by that and didn't want any part of Jesus. And don't even think or say that I am trying to water down the Gospel. That's my 2 cents people if ya like it I don't care if you don't I don't care either. God Bless

 By Salty Cyrus

Bleck is right. Love the people even if you hate the false beliefs, just like "hate the sin but love the sinner". That means you don't want to put an ad like this in an Islamic rock mag, but HM is a Christian rock mag, rite? Sometimes in witnessing a little (very little) shock can work as an attention getting device, just like in the rest of life you have to deal with each person and situation seperately, if you generalize you're setting yourself up for failure.

 By Sasha

I never ever want to be Christian if it means being like some of you people on here.

I wish you guys could hear yourselves.

 By Dude

You're all wasting your time trying to decide who the better Christian is. Look at all of you people of "the faith" bickering amongst yourselves. Everybody that believes in any major religion is brainwashed and Christians are just as bad as Muslims and Muslims are just as bad as Buddhists and Buddhists are just as bad as Jews. Do you like the music because it's Christian or because it fu#<ing rocks? Or Both? As an outsider I’ve noticed that Anberlin doesn't say one thing about Christianity, pretty much a bunch of Pu$$ys. And the Knights are totally ridiculous!! However, at least they rock harder and say what they believe, no matter if it's a waste of time or not.

 By Zeus

Hey Sasha, isn't that whole "goddess" email address thing a bit blasphemous? I don't know how Christian folk are up at the Four Seasons in Michigan but in the rest of the country we don't compare ourselves to God or "gods/goddesses", you pagan. It's a good thing that you don't want to be christian like the rest of the people on this posting because it sounds like you worship Athena or Aphrodite instead of the true God.

 By Rachel

I didn't really know the guys in anberlin were christians.

 By Sasha

Uh, well. Zeus, you're creepin' me out. I'm going to be having my mother write a letter to your internet service provider, and quite possibly your local police.

It's a nickname, get over it. I thought it was cute and clever and funny... my mom actually came up with the name, because I'm ultra-bossy.

Not that I think I'm a goddess or anything.

I have no problem with pagans, but I myself am not one. I think earth worshipping is a beautiful idea, I just have an inability to believe in any beliefs at all.

So, who are you, and how do you know where I work?

 By Bleck

I hope Zeus comment was a joke because Sasha never claimed to be a Christian. Anyway a little side note on Anberlin...They used to be called SAGOH 247 (Servants After Gods Own Heart) They changed the name after a different lineup and they kicked out a band memeber recently for not living the Christian life on the road. As a Musician myself I dn't always write songs about God. Anything you write about can glorify God. If you write about Love, Love is something God gave us. Talking about nature..God made Nature. Our definition of Worship is a little screwed up sometimes. Giving glory to God in what you do is worship. I can sit and look at the stars and wonder how they got there and say they are beautiful and that gives Glory to God. There are many bands that have Christians in them that don't talk about God in their Music and it's no ones place to judge them on that. Here are some noteable indie bands that have Christians in them.

Copeland
Underoath
The Beautiful Mistake
Further Seems Forever
Anberlin
Dead Poetic
Mewithoutyou
MXPX
THe Pale
Beloved (US)
Norma Jean

 By Ian

Stephen is completely right!

 By arch

Stephen is completely wrong!

 By Dr. Heathen Scum

As a rationalist and therefore non-believer, I always find the misuse of logic in areas that require blind faith amusing. There's plenty of misapplication here, that's for certain. Just for amusement's sake, I did a tally of the comments up to the gent who claimed 75% of the coments were about how offensive the ad is (no more offensive than you people pushing prayer in school, etc.). Actually, there were far more neutral comments on unrelated matters. Negative comments were about 40% up to that posting. If you have to cook your stats, one might suspect that your argument is weak. Better just stick with your faith. Pray in one hand...

 By Dr. Heathen S

As a rationalist and therefore non-believer, I always find the misuse of logic in areas that require blind faith amusing. There's plenty of misapplication here, that's for certain. Just for amusement's sake, I did a tally of the comments up to the gent who claimed 75% of the coments were about how offensive the ad is (no more offensive than you people pushing prayer in school, etc.). Actually, there were far more neutral comments on unrelated matters. Negative comments were about 40% up to that posting. If you have to cook your stats, one might suspect that your argument is weak. Better just stick with your faith. Pray in one hand...

 By Dr. Heathen S

As a rationalist and therefore non-believer, I always find the misuse of logic in areas that require blind faith amusing. There's plenty of misapplication here, that's for certain. Just for amusement's sake, I did a tally of the comments up to the gent who claimed 75% of the coments were about how offensive the ad is (no more offensive than you people pushing prayer in school, etc.). Actually, there were far more neutral comments on unrelated matters. Negative comments were about 40% up to that posting. If you have to cook your stats, one might suspect that your argument is weak. Better just stick with your faith. Pray in one hand...

 By lauren

hahaha...i'm sorry i really can't resist. amidst all of our bickering the new issue has come out. hahahaa...all i know is HM really knows how to rock the boat.... and i personally think its hysterical! :-)

 By jeremy

i think the band is crap and all these comments are doing is giving them more press. i say ignore them, they are hhorrible and won't be around much anyway.

 By Dr. Heathen S

If you think something is crap, of course it won't be "around much." Your God will surely smite it for you, you wonderful embodiment of the modern Christian spirit.

 By jimmy

Dr. Heathen S - Since you think you're so much of a greater thinker than anyone else here, then I guess you will smite us all with your brain, in the spirit of modern elitist.

 By Dr. Heathen S

Why do you feel the need to put words in my mouth, Jimmy my lad? Aren't you supposed to avoid bearing false witness or something?
In my postings,I never expressed a desire to smite you or anyone else. More evidence of weak thinking and a weak argument. I will admit that someone like you does make it all too easy to feel elitist (and for that, and the amusement your statement provides, I thank you), but I don't think that pointing out someone else's logical fallacies is inherently elitist.

 By Aaron Newberry

I don't want to, I just don't want to point the finger; but God calls us to simply be like Jesus. How are we supposed to represent Christ by acting as though we are better than others and pointing the finger.
I don't agree with the KOTNC all that much, and I do think that the Crusades is a black mark on Christianity. But God calls us to love, it's as simple as that. To be a Christian merely means to be a Jesus Follower, Christian means "little christ."
Let's try and represent Christ here, rather than point the finger.
In Love
Aaron

 By Dr. Heathen S

Take a lesson from Aaron, Jimbo. If you're going to claim to follow this guru of yours it seems you should walk the walk and not just talk the talk as so many suppossed Christians of my acquaintance seem to do.
Sorry if this sounds like fingerpointing (or elitist-how awful THAT would be), but I've got my own standards to live up to.

 By Jimbo

i am returning sarcasm with sarcasm - and your last two comments prove my point. thankyou my good man

 By Dr Heathen S

There is a distinct difference between sarcasm and putting words in someone else's mouth. If I were to write, "Jim, why do you want to smite Jews?" or something of that nature, it would hardly be sarcasm. What you're doing is merely spouting off nonsense. Furthermore, my original point was unsarcastic as well as verifiably correct.
If you're not going to be put any thought into your replies, please take your hoop and go home.

 By David

The band is an obvious joke, theyre probably psyched they're pissing of Christians and earning themselves this much controversy. Let them be, they'll go back to pumping gas in a few weeks when their websites hits decrease again.

 By howie

That's right, anybody with a band that gets hits on their website is able to quit their day jobs, everybody knows that! Actually I thot having a band was enough to quit your day job, maybe that's why I'm strung out on drugs.
Band=Money

 By lauren

haha. howie, you're a funny dude.
but who needs drugs? all this bs will mess w/ your head well enough.

 By Jimbo aka "hoop"

Anyone with a mind can tell by your post that you think you are a greater thinker than others and I didn't put any words in your mouth that you did not first imply. In your post were you say "Your God will surely smite it for you"- yeah that's sarcasm. Then in, "(no more offensive than you people pushing prayer in school, etc.)" - yeah I guess that's not putting words in anybody's mouth and/or assuming, which is what I did to you back and then you got mad. - by the way, good cheap-shot at the end of your last respose.
Have a great day dude, it's beautiful outside!

 By Dr Heathen S

It's not putting words in anyone's mouth: you claim to be Christians and this is what your fellow Christians are doing. I find it and much of the rest of the Christian agenda sickening. If you find it sickening, then you should disasssociate yuorslef from them.
I don't think you'll last long as a Christian, Jimmy: you want to be an arrogant jerk but your attempts at Christian humility (something few Christians of my acquaintance do more than pay lip service to, anyway) are holding you back. You're also striving for some cohesive analytical thought, for which I congratulate you: keep at it and you'll probably shed the ridiculous beliefs.
Yes, I believe I'm superior: but you seem to believe that you are, which is not very Christian (and elitist,as though there's something wrong with that). But I certainly don't care enough about anyone here to smite them.
And I've never been mad at you. I have no idea where you got that impression.
And good one to the doofus who puts down pumping gas: yeah, honest work is for suckers. I pumped gas for three years in high school, maybe that's why I'm not good enough to be a Christian.

 By Dr Heathen S

It's not putting words in anyone's mouth: you claim to be Christians and this is what your fellow Christians are doing. I find it and much of the rest of the Christian agenda sickening. If you find it sickening, then you should disasssociate yourself from them.
In fact, I doubt you'll last long as a Christian, Jimmy: you want to be an arrogant jerk but your attempts at Christian humility (something few Christians of my acquaintance do more than pay lip service to, anyway) are holding you back. You're also striving for some cohesive analytical thought, for which I congratulate you: keep at it and you'll probably shed the ridiculous beliefs.
Yes, I believe I'm superior: but you seem to believe that you are, which is not very Christian (and elitist,as though there's something wrong with that). But I certainly don't care enough about anyone here to smite them.
And I've never been mad at you. I have no idea where you got that impression.
And good one to the doofus who puts down pumping gas: yeah, honest work is for suckers. I pumped gas for three years in high school, maybe that's why I'm not good enough to be a Christian.

 By jimmy

Dr Heathen S - You're a good guy(or gal I don't believe I've heard you say). You have a good head on your sholders, but I dont get it when someone gives you a taste of your own medicine, then you(or people in general) find it revolting. I guess I just get tired of people constantly saying that Christians are not rational or intelligent, I'm not saying you did this, but what you said gave me the notion of this idea so I figured I'd voice it(which everbody seems to be able to do but Christians) - I guess that was basically what I was getting at.
-And believe me, I've been bombarded by tons of analytical thought and I still have my faith
-Good day dude

 By Dr Heathen S

Wrong agaın Jım. I never mentıoned beıng revolted by anythıng: you've got to be careful about not just hearıng what you want to hear. I mentıoned that the ad was no more revoltıng than the agenda of the Chrıstıan rıght, specıfıcally school prayer, but I'm too famılıar wıth human behavıor to be revolted or even surprısed by eıther. I found (and do fınd) the sloppy thınkıng evıdent ın many of these posts, partıcularly the one I was talkıng about ın my fırst post, amusıng and that was what I saıd.
Your claıms regardıng my ıntellıgence were certaınly not offensıve: some of them were amusıng others were just lame. Knowıng you only through your posts certaınly hasn't gıven me any reason to take you serıously, at least not untıl now when you've dropped the strıdent tone and gotten more ınto what would seem to be a more approprıate tone (ala Aaron N.) for a professed Chrıstıan.
Once agaın, my fırst poınt ıs verıfıably true. But ıt's not as ıf I claımed that the guy postıng the wrong percentages was possessed of an ınferıor mınd for hıs ınabılıty to calculate correctly. I assume that he dıdn't bother to count up the responses at all and just pulled a faırly round fıgure out of hıs...uh, hat that was based on what he wanted (and threfore belıeved) the correct fıgures to be. But ıf he's not not goıng to bother to use hıs braın, as he dıd ın thıs case, that ıs ındeed a dısplay of poor ıntellıgence. He mıght be a genıus for all I know, but ıf he's too lazy to apply hımself he's goıng to say and probably do more dumb thıngs than the average person.
It's all too human to let our wıshes ınfluence our perceptıons and belıefs (the basıs of all notıons of reıncarnatıon/ressurectıon), but a ratıonal person wıll try to bear thıs ın mınd as much as possıble.
I hope you won't mınd the absence of a cheap shot: my heart just ısn't ın ıt now that you're dısplayıng a reasonable attıtude, even ıf you're stıll claımıng I wrote thıngs I dıdn't, probably because you've mısınterpreted my attıtude.